Gwen_Dunne v4.mp4

Gwen 2.vtt

English

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And you want people to succeed in
excel, you've got to look at what

{{00:00:04}}
you know, what are their strengths?

{{00:00:05}}
How do you make them feel stronger?

{{00:00:06}}
Because if you feel great at what
you're doing,  you know, if you feel

{{00:00:10}}
wonderful at what you're achieving
and you think you're a pro, then you

{{00:00:14}}
actually make the business more money.

{{00:00:27}}
Hi, I'm Jordan Thorne and we're
here in the Streamly studio

{{00:00:29}}
today joined by Gwen Dunne.

{{00:00:31}}
She's a behavioral and work
psychologist at Divinity.

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Gwen, thank you so much
for joining us today.

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You're welcome.

{{00:00:36}}
So, you know, today we're talking
about, you know, the Covid 19

{{00:00:42}}
generation as some refer to
it, the younger generation,

{{00:00:45}}
and,  this conversation about
around imposter syndrome.

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So what is imposter syndrome
and why do we talk about it

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in the workplace context?

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Imposter syndrome when it
comes down to it's insecurity.

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And that's the simplest
way to look at it.

{{00:00:59}}
And it's something that, to the point
where it impacts our mental health.

{{00:01:04}}
So not feeling good enough
basically, and not feeling like you

{{00:01:08}}
deserve to be in the role you're
in or in a position you're in.

{{00:01:11}}
Whether that's being a parent
or being,  a colleague or a

{{00:01:15}}
manager in an organization.

{{00:01:18}}
For the Covid 19 generation high
school and university exams,

{{00:01:20}}
in many cases were altered,
reduced, or not even given at all.

{{00:01:24}}
So when this generation goes to apply
for entry level jobs with companies

{{00:01:29}}
using or sort of used to using
these results as an indicator of

{{00:01:33}}
experience or, you know, suitability,
how might this affect their sense

{{00:01:36}}
of confidence when applying?

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I think because it was a global
experience for this generation,  I

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don't think it's gonna be too bad.

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I really don't.

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Because I think the, the question
is how are organize for me is how

{{00:01:51}}
are organizations and companies
going to assess people differently?

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Because they're going to have to,
so, so I think as long as that's

{{00:01:58}}
fair, and it would have to be,
because you can't have, you know,

{{00:02:00}}
they, they don't have the results.

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They don't, they didn't
do it in that way.

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I think that the question actually
is how are organizations going to

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accommodate for this generation?

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So, you know, let's say we, you,
you've offer someone a new role

{{00:02:13}}
and they're sort of settling
into being a first time employee.

{{00:02:17}}
Do you think that giving praise
around contribution could be enough

{{00:02:21}}
to combat those who do sort of feel
maybe not quite confident in the role?

{{00:02:26}}
It depends how deep set is.

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To be honest with you, , you
know, I might have experienced

{{00:02:31}}
something when I was,  I'll
give you an example actually.

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You know, I remember something
when I was eight years old and that

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knocks my confidence back then.

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So as an adult, that still impacts me.

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Everyone has experiences like this.

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They go back to their, their childhood,
and it's whether or not that, ,  sense

{{00:02:47}}
of insecurity has been, you know,
ingrained and really drilled down into

{{00:02:51}}
the movies through repeat experiences
or, challenging environments.

{{00:02:56}}
It depends how deep the imposter
syndrome runs with somebody.

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On the surface, we all have our own
insecurities, so giving positive

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praise as long as it's around,  I
would, as long as it's fair as well.

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You know, you don't want favoritism.

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You see a lot of that going on.

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Some people are more receptive
to praise, other people are

{{00:03:12}}
not receptive to praise.

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Doesn't work for them.

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Are there any reasons this generation
in particular might be more likely

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to sort of perceive themselves
as imposters in the workplace?

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I see a lot of people being
very, very,  oversensitive,   in

{{00:03:25}}
the meet social media.

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And, and the younger, the
generation, especially the

{{00:03:29}}
generation that's gone through
this, I do see a lot of sensitivity.

{{00:03:33}}
So looking at comedy, people
being shut down much more often.

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You know, comedy is essentially
all politically incorrect, but,

{{00:03:39}}
you know, now it's all, everything
having to be politically correct

{{00:03:41}}
and you can't have humor.

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Right.

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So you're seeing more of that and
I, I think it's about is it real

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imposter syndrome or is it something
they're sort of,  they're becoming

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self-fulfilling prophecies as well,
because I think some people have

{{00:03:53}}
terrible experience, you know,
experiences which make them feel

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like they aren't good enough.

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I think being a parent is
a, is a really good example.

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There are a lot of people out there
that when you, you, you first become a

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parent, you, there is a common feeling
that you don't feel good enough.

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Right.

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And that's, that's normal.

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That's normal psychology.

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But then how long does that go on for?

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And is there someone, is there a
partner there or a family member

{{00:04:14}}
making you feel not good enough?

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So you can see how it embeds
over a longer period of time.

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And with this generation, I that
we're talking about, I think

{{00:04:23}}
they've, we've gotta be a little
bit careful of,  pandering to some

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of the, for the, the sensitivity,
seeing what have imposter syndrome.

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And I, we, we love our labels, right?

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Everything has to have a
label, it is insecurity.

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Interesting.

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Do you think that discrimination or
stereotyping at all can factor into

{{00:04:42}}
why imposter syndrome is developed?

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For instance, you know, we expect
the digitally native,  the digital

{{00:04:47}}
natives to sort of be amazing with
tech and, you know, are we kind

{{00:04:51}}
of setting them up to be fraud?

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If they don't meet these
stereotyped expectations.

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I was watching something,  on
social media the other day, and

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there was this, this young,  this
young girl who couldn't have

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been more than 10 years old.

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She was in China and she was
having a meltdown about,  not being

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able to be good enough at math.

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And I think that's, that's a
really good example for me.

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It made me think of it.

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Where it, it's this stereotype of
you have to be good at map because

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you're, you know, you're a young girl
in your in China and, you knowit's

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this stereotype,  they do exist.

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. It's, , there's a lot of it in
research that you'll see,  about women.

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Women,  tend to have higher
levels of this than men.

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They are, you know, it, it's
about men feeling like they go

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in more confidently into roles.

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There's loads of research on
it, and I think that it does

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play a huge part of it as well.

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But again, you've got to be careful
about this self prophecies as well.

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How do you determine if this is
something you should really sort of

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cater to or whether there's sort of
an element where you have to push back

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and maybe build them up a bit stronger?

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How, how do, how did,
how did someone navigate?

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I think it depends on
the environment, right?

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I mean, if you look at something
like,  the culture that Elon Musk

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is building, everyone's talking
about what he's doing on Twitter.

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He just, for me, he's just trying
to make noise because then he gets

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more people actually looking at
what he's tweeting as a company.

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So,  it's, you know, there's
cultures like what people

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talk about with Amazon.

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Oh, okay.

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Where you've, you, you've
gotta have a very thick skin

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evidently to, to work there.

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So a level of sensitivity
to the highest level there,

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it probably won't work.

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Somebody probably won't
survive in that environment.

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I think it's very important that
people find environments and

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cultures that they fit with.

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I think that's, that's important.

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But also for organizations that really
care about human beings, which sadly

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not all of them obviously do, and
you want people to succeed and excel.

{{00:06:33}}
We've got to look at what, you
know, what are their strengths?

{{00:06:35}}
How do you make them feel stronger?

{{00:06:37}}
Because if you feel great at what
you are doing,  you know, if you feel

{{00:06:41}}
wonderful of what you're achieving
and you think you're a pro, then you

{{00:06:45}}
actually make the business more money.

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Again, not rocket science.

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Right.

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So it, it's about, you know, the,
I think the greatest organizations

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will have like the, the executive
coaches and people like that coming

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in there and, and breaking it down.

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I think that organizations can't
deal with that on their own if there

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is, if we do have a wave, but we
dunno what's coming in the future.

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If we do have a wave of this
imposter syndrome coming up

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with the generations, I think
there'll be a, a gracely for

{{00:07:07}}
psychology in the workplace, which
obviously is good for business.

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I think I find it interesting that,
you know, you, you mentioned that,

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that ultimately, potentially in the
future there could come this wave.

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So what do you think some of the
short and long-term implications

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might be on businesses?

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Like what, what does that
mean if someone has imposter

{{00:07:26}}
syndrome maybe down the line?

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Is it that, you know,  people
maybe aren't as comfortable

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with putting themselves up
for, you know, future jobs?

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Or like, what could the
implications be if that isn't

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sort of managed or target?

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Or identified early on?

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I think, ,  it's a difficult
question because I think because

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the answer is so complex, it really
will depend again on individuals.

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It will be depend on what
they went through,  in each

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of the individual lifetimes.

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Your experiences from the,
from when you're in the wo

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different to mine, right?

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So it's, it's, we are
uniquely, completely unique.

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Unique from each other.

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I think.

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Organizations.

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I think, I think the short and the long
term impacts of this in organization,

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I think with organizations also trying
to tackle it, it's, it's how much of

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it you're willing to  accommodate.

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I think you have to look at how much
of that you're willing to accommodate.

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I think in for the actual business
though, . I think that if someone

{{00:08:24}}
doesn't feel greater at what they
do, imagine you're going for surgery.

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Okay.

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And the surgeon has imposter syndrome.

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I mean, that's gonna be worrying.

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right?

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That person's got insecurities
around being the best will.

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They perform the best?

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A lot of it people talk about positive
mental attitude and being focused

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and self-belief, and that is really
important because if you go into a

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room, for example, when we stand up on
a stage or when you're in an interview,

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you know, if you aren't able.

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Come across in as the, the
great person that you are.

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You might not end up getting the job.

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That might have been the perfect person
for your organization to create your

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product, but you've just, you know,
we, we, we've lost them because of it.

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So I think that that's the negative
impact from it, but I think you

{{00:09:02}}
can, again, accommodate for that.

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I think again, there has to
be, and I, it's sad to write

{{00:09:07}}
because we won't actually know
the impact of it until later on.

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What might businesses actually gain
from employment of the next gen

{{00:09:14}}
workforce who grew up through the
turbulence of the Covid 19 pandemic?

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I think this is gonna be really
exciting to find out, and I

{{00:09:19}}
think that none of us know,
and I think that's really ex, I

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think that is really exciting.

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I think that there's gonna be
some, there's some, there's

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some insecurities there.

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There's going to be fear, I
think, of,  losing control.

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I think that we are seeing that already
with people who feel like they've

{{00:09:34}}
had lots of freedom given to them and
it's like, okay, work with us as an

{{00:09:37}}
organization, work with us remotely,
make this company survive of, but now

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we want you all back in the office and
we're taking all your freedom away.

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So I think there will be resilience
on one part, but also this fear of,

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and, and this anger I think is coming
up as well, of people not wanting to,

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they want to be in an organization
where,  they have choices, right?

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So they want to have choices
now because they've been given a

{{00:10:01}}
choice, well, they were, I suppose
it wasn't essentially a choice,

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but they've been given something.

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They've been shown what it was like.

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But now what they're saying is, you
know, you can't have that anymore.

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So that was really fun, wasn't it?

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But no, we're stopping that and
it's, I think that we're going to

{{00:10:13}}
see,  more bubbling anger, people
changing jobs more often as well.

{{00:10:17}}
But again, I think the, the kids
going through this,  yeah, they,

{{00:10:22}}
they have to be resilient, I think.

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I think they would have to.

{{00:10:26}}
Amazing.

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Well, thank you so much for

{{00:10:27}}
You're welcome

{{00:10:28}}
talking to me today about this.

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I think there's been a lot of
insights and controversy for people to

{{00:10:32}}
contemplate on, so I appreciate that.

{{00:10:34}}
You're welcome.

{{00:10:35}}
Thank you very much.

And you want people to succeed in
excel, you've got to look at what

Because if you feel great at what
you're doing,  you know, if you feel

wonderful at what you're achieving
and you think you're a pro, then you

Hi, I'm Jordan Thorne and we're
here in the Streamly studio

She's a behavioral and work
psychologist at Divinity.

Gwen, thank you so much
for joining us today.

So, you know, today we're talking
about, you know, the Covid 19

generation as some refer to
it, the younger generation,

and,  this conversation about
around imposter syndrome.

So what is imposter syndrome
and why do we talk about it

Imposter syndrome when it
comes down to it's insecurity.

And that's the simplest
way to look at it.

And it's something that, to the point
where it impacts our mental health.

So not feeling good enough
basically, and not feeling like you

deserve to be in the role you're
in or in a position you're in.

Whether that's being a parent
or being,  a colleague or a

For the Covid 19 generation high
school and university exams,

in many cases were altered,
reduced, or not even given at all.

So when this generation goes to apply
for entry level jobs with companies

using or sort of used to using
these results as an indicator of

experience or, you know, suitability,
how might this affect their sense

I think because it was a global
experience for this generation,  I

Because I think the, the question
is how are organize for me is how

are organizations and companies
going to assess people differently?

Because they're going to have to,
so, so I think as long as that's

fair, and it would have to be,
because you can't have, you know,

They don't, they didn't
do it in that way.

I think that the question actually
is how are organizations going to

So, you know, let's say we, you,
you've offer someone a new role

and they're sort of settling
into being a first time employee.

Do you think that giving praise
around contribution could be enough

to combat those who do sort of feel
maybe not quite confident in the role?

To be honest with you, , you
know, I might have experienced

something when I was,  I'll
give you an example actually.

You know, I remember something
when I was eight years old and that

They go back to their, their childhood,
and it's whether or not that, ,  sense

of insecurity has been, you know,
ingrained and really drilled down into

the movies through repeat experiences
or, challenging environments.

It depends how deep the imposter
syndrome runs with somebody.

On the surface, we all have our own
insecurities, so giving positive

praise as long as it's around,  I
would, as long as it's fair as well.

Some people are more receptive
to praise, other people are

Are there any reasons this generation
in particular might be more likely

to sort of perceive themselves
as imposters in the workplace?

I see a lot of people being
very, very,  oversensitive,   in

And, and the younger, the
generation, especially the

generation that's gone through
this, I do see a lot of sensitivity.

So looking at comedy, people
being shut down much more often.

You know, comedy is essentially
all politically incorrect, but,

you know, now it's all, everything
having to be politically correct

So you're seeing more of that and
I, I think it's about is it real

imposter syndrome or is it something
they're sort of,  they're becoming

self-fulfilling prophecies as well,
because I think some people have

terrible experience, you know,
experiences which make them feel

I think being a parent is
a, is a really good example.

There are a lot of people out there
that when you, you, you first become a

parent, you, there is a common feeling
that you don't feel good enough.

And is there someone, is there a
partner there or a family member

So you can see how it embeds
over a longer period of time.

And with this generation, I that
we're talking about, I think

they've, we've gotta be a little
bit careful of,  pandering to some

of the, for the, the sensitivity,
seeing what have imposter syndrome.

Everything has to have a
label, it is insecurity.

Do you think that discrimination or
stereotyping at all can factor into

For instance, you know, we expect
the digitally native,  the digital

natives to sort of be amazing with
tech and, you know, are we kind

If they don't meet these
stereotyped expectations.

'Imposter Syndrome' is something many of us will have experienced, especially when starting a new job. But is there a chance it hits a little differently for the next-gen workforce? In a world where exams and traditional structures have changed, what can you do to ensure the next-gen workforce knows that they belong?
Gwen Dunne shares her experience as a Behavioural & Work Psychologist, to help us understand challenges the younger generation are up against as they enter into a post-pandemic workforce. 