Name: Anthropology in finance: How can the study of human cultures benefit banks?
Uploaded: 2024-03-11T15:54:00.122Z
Duration: 622.24
Description: Anette Brolos, Director and Founder of Finthropology, joins us at FinovateEurope 2024 and reveals the customer insights banks have been missing all along. Is hard data enough to understand your customers? Or could you do something more to get to know them? Find out why qualitative data is crucial to understand customer behaviours in this interview.

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Anette Brolos.vtt

English

{{00:00:01}}
David Penn: Hi, I'm David Penn,
Research Analyst with Finovate.

{{00:00:06}}
Joining me now is Anette Brolos.

{{00:00:07}}
She is the Director and
Founder of Finthropology.

{{00:00:09}}
Thank you for joining us today.

{{00:00:11}}
Thank you.

{{00:00:12}}
I thought before we get started,
you could tell us just about

{{00:00:14}}
what Finthropology is all about.

{{00:00:16}}
Anette Brolos: Yes, you can, of course.

{{00:00:18}}
We are two persons who started
this company a few years back.

{{00:00:22}}
It is a contraction of
finance and anthropology.

{{00:00:27}}
So our idea is that we actually know too
little about people's money behaviors.

{{00:00:33}}
And this is what we've set out to correct.

{{00:00:36}}
So we're doing research in
people's behavior in finance.

{{00:00:40}}
David Penn: Very interesting.

{{00:00:40}}
There's so much talk about technology,
but they're the people behind the

{{00:00:43}}
technology, so it's really interesting
to find focus on that as well.

{{00:00:46}}
Yeah.

{{00:00:46}}
I wonder if you could share some of
your insights about why financial

{{00:00:49}}
institutions struggle sometimes
to be more customer centric.

{{00:00:55}}
Anette Brolos: In our experience,
there are several reasons.

{{00:00:57}}
One reason is perhaps that many companies
are not used to working closely with

{{00:01:02}}
their customers because it hasn't been
done very much in finance, very often.

{{00:01:07}}
And the other thing is that they
rely very much on collecting

{{00:01:10}}
data, which is a good thing.

{{00:01:11}}
thing.

{{00:01:12}}
And I am definitely encouraged
doing surveys and understanding

{{00:01:15}}
more about people's data.

{{00:01:17}}
But data is not necessarily the truth.

{{00:01:19}}
Data may cheat you.

{{00:01:21}}
They may not reflect
what's actually happening.

{{00:01:24}}
They may reflect only
the actual transactions.

{{00:01:27}}
You cannot see that in Brazil, people
are moving money from the digital

{{00:01:31}}
bank to their traditional banks in
order to have a free ATM withdrawal.

{{00:01:36}}
And likewise, you cannot see that it
is not as expected in a buy now pay

{{00:01:43}}
later solution that it achieves higher
loyalty, but rather that people have a

{{00:01:48}}
vast array of different buy now pay later
solutions that they will use for different

{{00:01:52}}
purposes, but you don't get to understand
the why, and that is very much what

{{00:01:57}}
my partner and anthropologist, Erin B.

{{00:02:00}}
Taylor, always says.

{{00:02:02}}
This is about the why, because that's
why you do qualitative research.

{{00:02:06}}
So I think that is the most important
and a secondary thing is also that

{{00:02:11}}
you tend to look at the individual
rather than the community and in many

{{00:02:15}}
countries, particularly in the global
South,  you have, you just have perhaps

{{00:02:21}}
the one bank account or the one mobile
money account for the whole family.

{{00:02:26}}
And in that case, if you
analyze every transaction going

{{00:02:30}}
through it, it will look odd.

{{00:02:32}}
David Penn: It's  it's
really very interesting.

{{00:02:36}}
One of the things I'm curious
about, given that, and we're going

{{00:02:38}}
to talk more about the quality
of the research in just a moment.

{{00:02:40}}
What are some of the things that
financial institutions can do to more

{{00:02:43}}
align themselves with customer needs?

{{00:02:47}}
Anette Brolos: We would love to see
more companies actually talking to

{{00:02:51}}
their customers and observing them.

{{00:02:54}}
Like I said, with the buy now pay later,
we did a small study in the US and

{{00:02:59}}
we talked to some experts afterwards
and they were truly struck by what we

{{00:03:04}}
found doing just digital ethnography
that is analyzing the discussions in

{{00:03:10}}
consumer groups and digital groups
of people, how they help each other,

{{00:03:14}}
all the difficulties they encounter
and how they try to overcome them.

{{00:03:18}}
And that is a great source of information.

{{00:03:21}}
Just talking to your customers
and listening to them.

{{00:03:24}}
And I think in this respect, one of
my favorite ancient example is the,

{{00:03:30}}
I think it was idea doing a study on
healthy food and they would talk to

{{00:03:35}}
families about how they prepared food.

{{00:03:38}}
And they asked that they all had
really healthy food for their children.

{{00:03:42}}
Of course we all do.

{{00:03:43}}
And then they asked, can we come
and see you at dinner one evening?

{{00:03:47}}
And they came and the giveaway moment
was when the children watched and

{{00:03:52}}
they said mommy, you're cooking.

{{00:03:57}}
That is sometimes what we would like
to see financial companies doing

{{00:04:01}}
more of this kind of discussions
and observations of their customers.

{{00:04:06}}
David Penn: That's really interesting.

{{00:04:06}}
And I imagine, as you said before,
this isn't something that financial

{{00:04:10}}
institutions have traditionally done.

{{00:04:11}}
And that's a bit of a change up in mindset
to all of a sudden say we've really got

{{00:04:15}}
to get in there and really understand our
customers far more than just what we're

{{00:04:18}}
seeing, as you mentioned, in a data role.

{{00:04:21}}
We talked before about
qualitative research.

{{00:04:24}}
You mentioned it a little bit before.

{{00:04:25}}
And this has to do with your
new book, which I'd like to

{{00:04:26}}
talk a little bit more about.

{{00:04:28}}
What sort of, but one of the things
that you pointed out was that there

{{00:04:31}}
isn't as much of this research as
there could be or should be perhaps.

{{00:04:34}}
And I'm wondering, what are some of those
gaps and maybe even why those gaps exist?

{{00:04:37}}
And what can be done to fill those gaps?

{{00:04:41}}
Anette Brolos: When I started doing my
industrial PhD many years ago, not as

{{00:04:45}}
long back as you might think though,
I realized that there's not that many

{{00:04:51}}
case studies actually done in finance as
there might be in retail or other areas.

{{00:04:56}}
And that's probably because
financial companies would like to

{{00:04:59}}
keep their customers' data secret
in order to serve the customers.

{{00:05:05}}
So that in itself is a great change.

{{00:05:07}}
And then I realized and indeed, we
both did as we looked into this, that

{{00:05:13}}
there's very little qualitative research
actually being done: sitting down

{{00:05:18}}
with customers, observing them, doing
deep dives into it is not as usual.

{{00:05:25}}
And that is where the gap lies.

{{00:05:26}}
And there are many ways of actually
doing this and things are picking up

{{00:05:31}}
particularly, I think in the global South,
where you really want to achieve high

{{00:05:35}}
inclusion for women, for instance, and
you go and ask people to keep financial

{{00:05:40}}
diaries, tell about their transactions
and the reasons why they have an account

{{00:05:44}}
and why it works or why it doesn't, why
you save and how you take loans out.

{{00:05:49}}
And I think that possibly also some
of the young fintechs are moving in

{{00:05:53}}
that direction, so either they're
studying people or talking to them,

{{00:05:57}}
or they actually have a pain point
that they experience themselves, so

{{00:06:02}}
you can mention that a number of apps
out there enticing you to save more.

{{00:06:08}}
Giving you the possibility of posting
a picture of the dog that you want

{{00:06:13}}
to buy and finding out how much you
need to save over how long a time

{{00:06:17}}
to be able to buy myself a dog or a
house or go on a beautiful vacation

{{00:06:22}}
and actually having the possibility
of sharing that information with other

{{00:06:25}}
people or competing even if you like.

{{00:06:29}}
So I think that  these are the type
of things that you can do in order

{{00:06:33}}
to, and you can do it by yourself.

{{00:06:35}}
We put, we have a hands on chapter
in our book on how to get started.

{{00:06:42}}
And we also would say that you can
liaise with people from universities or

{{00:06:49}}
master's thesis students or anthropology.

{{00:06:51}}
We'd love to do more of that kind of work.

{{00:06:54}}
David Penn: Certainly.

{{00:06:55}}
It's really interesting to hear.

{{00:06:56}}
We hear so much about financial
institutions needing to do this in

{{00:06:59}}
terms of digital transformation or
this in terms of a lot of initiatives.

{{00:07:02}}
And the question is always, well,
can they do this on their own?

{{00:07:05}}
And it's interesting to hear you say
they don't have to do this or that.

{{00:07:07}}
There are resources, obviously,
Finthropology is one, and

{{00:07:10}}
academia and so forth.

{{00:07:11}}
And, a number of ways that financial
institutions can reach out and partner

{{00:07:14}}
or work or collaborate with other
folks who can help them who know how

{{00:07:17}}
to do these  sort of research, which
I would imagine most institutions,

{{00:07:20}}
financial institutions don't really
have the background for, I'd imagine.

{{00:07:23}}
Anette Brolos: I think I don't know
particularly how it is in the UK, and

{{00:07:27}}
I can't say that I have a knowledge
of the global state of the art, but I

{{00:07:31}}
know that in the Nordic countries, it
was only when we started having quantum

{{00:07:35}}
physicists coming in to help building
robo services that we actually started

{{00:07:41}}
working closely with universities.

{{00:07:43}}
Before that, it was really rare.

{{00:07:45}}
Like I said, when I did my PhD, I was
constantly asked to speak about it because

{{00:07:52}}
it was so rare to see it done in finance.

{{00:07:55}}
And, possibly, at least in the Nordics,
it's because there was no tradition

{{00:08:00}}
until 10, 20 years ago to actually have
academics on board or in the leadership

{{00:08:07}}
C-suite, people would be trained in the
banks and so have a different background.

{{00:08:11}}
David Penn: Right?

{{00:08:12}}
Yeah, that's why I said
just listening to this.

{{00:08:13}}
It's just something a conversation.

{{00:08:15}}
I haven't heard a great deal
of, but hearing you talk about

{{00:08:17}}
it, you see the necessity of it.

{{00:08:18}}
You mentioned the fintechs a moment ago.

{{00:08:20}}
Do you think that the rise of
fintech is, helping influence that

{{00:08:24}}
because of the way that fintechs are
maybe a little bit more sensitive

{{00:08:28}}
to the customer in some respects?

{{00:08:29}}
Do you think that's helping nudge some of
these financial institutes toward being

{{00:08:32}}
more aware or knowing at least that they
need to be more aware of their customers?

{{00:08:35}}
Anette Brolos: I think so.

{{00:08:36}}
And I think that the many
partnerships that we see are

{{00:08:38}}
growing  in that area will help.

{{00:08:42}}
And I think one of the things that
the fintechs can do, whether they

{{00:08:45}}
work with academics or whether they
do  actually go and do interviews

{{00:08:50}}
with their customers, then certainly
they are, at a point where they need

{{00:08:55}}
customer traction to get capital.

{{00:08:59}}
And that is  a a great way to push this.

{{00:09:03}}
And often, we heard just this morning
a company saying corporates don't do

{{00:09:08}}
very well on their systems, so  we need
to build systems that can help them.

{{00:09:14}}
And I know, because I used to be a
corporate, so we have many fintechs

{{00:09:17}}
coming out of systems in finance
and wanting to do differently.

{{00:09:21}}
David Penn: Interesting.

{{00:09:22}}
Interesting.

{{00:09:23}}
One of the things I wanted to ask
you, maybe a way of wrapping up is say

{{00:09:26}}
a year out, we reconvene next year.

{{00:09:28}}
What kind of progress do you hope
banks, financial institutions will

{{00:09:32}}
have made along these lines in
terms of becoming more customer

{{00:09:34}}
aware, more customer centric?

{{00:09:37}}
Anette Brolos: I would, really
love that they move from the data

{{00:09:41}}
collection into the understanding
of, so to the real understanding of

{{00:09:46}}
the cost, what pains the customer.

{{00:09:48}}
And I would love to see more studies
out there because once it starts

{{00:09:53}}
happening, I think it will spread.

{{00:09:55}}
David Penn: Excellent.

{{00:09:56}}
Excellent.

{{00:09:56}}
Lots of spread.

{{00:09:56}}
We're hoping to see more of for sure.

{{00:09:58}}
Thank you very much for sitting and
talking with us, a very fascinating thing.

{{00:10:01}}
Again, we didn't mention
the name of your book.

{{00:10:03}}
Anette Brolos: No, the name of my
book, our book is Customer Centric

{{00:10:07}}
Innovation in Finance, it's coming
out at Kogan Page early April.

{{00:10:11}}
David Penn: Fantastic.

{{00:10:12}}
Something to look forward to.

{{00:10:13}}
Yeah.

{{00:10:13}}
Thank you.

{{00:10:14}}
We do.

{{00:10:14}}
Great.

{{00:10:15}}
Thank you.

{{00:10:15}}
Wonderful to meet you.

{{00:10:16}}
It was great to meet you.

{{00:10:17}}
Thank you.

{{00:10:17}}
And thank you as well.

David Penn: Hi, I'm David Penn,
Research Analyst with Finovate.

She is the Director and
Founder of Finthropology.

I thought before we get started,
you could tell us just about

We are two persons who started
this company a few years back.

It is a contraction of
finance and anthropology.

So our idea is that we actually know too
little about people's money behaviors.

And this is what we've set out to correct.

So we're doing research in
people's behavior in finance.

There's so much talk about technology,
but they're the people behind the

technology, so it's really interesting
to find focus on that as well.

I wonder if you could share some of
your insights about why financial

institutions struggle sometimes
to be more customer centric.

Anette Brolos: In our experience,
there are several reasons.

One reason is perhaps that many companies
are not used to working closely with

their customers because it hasn't been
done very much in finance, very often.

And the other thing is that they
rely very much on collecting

And I am definitely encouraged
doing surveys and understanding

They may not reflect
what's actually happening.

They may reflect only
the actual transactions.

You cannot see that in Brazil, people
are moving money from the digital

bank to their traditional banks in
order to have a free ATM withdrawal.

And likewise, you cannot see that it
is not as expected in a buy now pay

later solution that it achieves higher
loyalty, but rather that people have a

vast array of different buy now pay later
solutions that they will use for different

purposes, but you don't get to understand
the why, and that is very much what

This is about the why, because that's
why you do qualitative research.

So I think that is the most important
and a secondary thing is also that

you tend to look at the individual
rather than the community and in many

countries, particularly in the global
South,  you have, you just have perhaps

the one bank account or the one mobile
money account for the whole family.

And in that case, if you
analyze every transaction going

David Penn: It's  it's
really very interesting.

One of the things I'm curious
about, given that, and we're going

to talk more about the quality
of the research in just a moment.

What are some of the things that
financial institutions can do to more

Anette Brolos: We would love to see
more companies actually talking to

Like I said, with the buy now pay later,
we did a small study in the US and

we talked to some experts afterwards
and they were truly struck by what we

found doing just digital ethnography
that is analyzing the discussions in

consumer groups and digital groups
of people, how they help each other,

all the difficulties they encounter
and how they try to overcome them.

And that is a great source of information.

Just talking to your customers
and listening to them.

And I think in this respect, one of
my favorite ancient example is the,

I think it was idea doing a study on
healthy food and they would talk to

And they asked that they all had
really healthy food for their children.

And then they asked, can we come
and see you at dinner one evening?

And they came and the giveaway moment
was when the children watched and

That is sometimes what we would like
to see financial companies doing

more of this kind of discussions
and observations of their customers.

And I imagine, as you said before,
this isn't something that financial

And that's a bit of a change up in mindset
to all of a sudden say we've really got

to get in there and really understand our
customers far more than just what we're

seeing, as you mentioned, in a data role.

We talked before about
qualitative research.

And this has to do with your
new book, which I'd like to

What sort of, but one of the things
that you pointed out was that there

isn't as much of this research as
there could be or should be perhaps.

And I'm wondering, what are some of those
gaps and maybe even why those gaps exist?

Anette Brolos: When I started doing my
industrial PhD many years ago, not as

long back as you might think though,
I realized that there's not that many

case studies actually done in finance as
there might be in retail or other areas.

And that's probably because
financial companies would like to

keep their customers' data secret
in order to serve the customers.

And then I realized and indeed, we
both did as we looked into this, that

there's very little qualitative research
actually being done: sitting down

with customers, observing them, doing
deep dives into it is not as usual.

And there are many ways of actually
doing this and things are picking up

particularly, I think in the global South,
where you really want to achieve high

inclusion for women, for instance, and
you go and ask people to keep financial

diaries, tell about their transactions
and the reasons why they have an account

and why it works or why it doesn't, why
you save and how you take loans out.

And I think that possibly also some
of the young fintechs are moving in

FinovateEurope

Explainer

Anette Brolos, Director and Founder of Finthropology, joins us at FinovateEurope 2024 and reveals the customer insights banks have been missing all along. Is hard data enough to understand your customers? Or could you do something more to get to know them? Find out why qualitative data is crucial to understand customer behaviours in this interview.